Mosaic of China Season 02 Episode 07 – The Performance Exhibitor (ZHANG Yuan, Ming Contemporary Art Museum)

We all know what to expect in a theatre and in an art gallery. But where does Performance Art belong? Zhang Yuan, artist and curator at Ming Contemporary Art Museum (McaM) in Shanghai, can help to answer that question.

[Trailer]

ZY: I have done almost everything in this industry, but nothing has been very successful.

[Intro]

OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast about people making their mark in China. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.

Thank you for all your feedback from last week's episode with Louise Roy. It seems like we could do a whole separate podcast just on women's health. Today's episode is with the artist and art curator Zhang Yuan, and it's a great conversation. But before we start, you may have noticed that the @mosaicofchina Instagram account has suddenly disappeared. This was a surprise for me too, to say the least. I'm trying to find out what happened and get it back online, but in the meantime, you can still follow the images on Facebook and WeChat. And for subscribers to the PREMIUM version of the podcast, I'll start to upload the images directly onto Patreon from now on. So just head to the Patreon page for this episode, and you'll be able to follow everything there. Thanks to Gautier Squivée for giving me that suggestion.

OK enough of all that, let's get on with the show.

[Part 1]

OF: I'm here with Yuan, hi Yuan.

ZY: Hi, Oscar.

OF: So the first thing I want to do is to play you something.

[Start of Audio Clip]

Nick YU: His name is Zhang Yuan, the Maker Zhang. Yeah, we worked in the theatre. But he left to be an independent artist. I think his work is really interesting.

[End of Audio Clip]

OF: That was our friend, Nick Yu.

ZY: Yeah. I think I met him in 2004. I was called to have an internship in a theatre where he worked. They needed a translator to work between the director and the local team. And then he asked "Are you interested in coming to work in the theatre?" I thought "Yes, why not give it a try." Then we worked together for about four years in this National Theatre.

OF: Oh nice. So he basically was your sponsor into this world?

ZY: You could say so. In a way, yes.

OF: Very nice. Well, before we go any further, I would like to know, what is the object that you have brought that in some way typifies your life in China?

ZY: A radio. I bought it when I was beginning my years in university. And that's the machine that I used to connect with the world. You know, the VOA - Voice of America - and BBC. And we used this to learn English, to practice our listening comprehension. And also emotionally, at that time, I would use it every morning and every evening before I go to sleep. So it's kind of like my buddy.

OF: Yeah. And it's funny because there was someone else in last season who chose the same thing.

ZY: Really?

OF: Yes. His name was Yang Yi. He's a broadcaster.

ZY: Oh.

OF: And it was exactly the same window that he had. He lived in 安徽 [Ānhuī] Province. And that was what opened up the world to him. So that's so nice that there's a connection like that.

ZY: Yeah, that's cool. Yeah.

OF: Although yours is probably more advanced, because it's very mini.

ZY: Mm hmm.

OF: Was that a high tech invention back then?

ZY: It's a high tech invention at that time, I would say.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: How the hell do you still have it? Like, most people would have thrown away their old equipment.

ZY: The reason why I chose this object today is that there's some kind of emotional bond between me and this small little monster. Maybe one day I will throw it away, I don't know. Because it's not working at the moment.

OF: Right.

ZY: I don't know actually, to be honest, how long I could keep it.

OF: Well, let's talk about today then. So is there a connection between that radio and what you do today in China?

ZY: It helps me, like, my English and the way I see the world and… Yeah, I mean, in a way it helps me for my life at the moment, but not directly.

OF: Yeah. So what is it that you do?

ZY: OK, I'm a curator at the moment, working in a museum in Shanghai. It's called Ming Contemporary Art Museum, McaM. Yeah, it's a private museum, and it was founded by Mingyuan Group - a private real estate company - in 2015, with the mission to facilitate the exploration of performing arts. I took the job in 2017 actually, as the performing arts curator in the museum, to support local artists as well as international collaborations.

OF: OK, so that's obviously the connection that I can make between your work with Nick Yu and what you're doing today.

ZY: Yeah I was, like, starting my career in this big national theatre with Nick Yu, almost 16 years ago. Then I left that place, and I became an artist… I think, myself. Yeah, for, I mean, four or five years. Then I started to work with independent artists. And then there was this special museum, so I took the chance, and then I started to work there.

OF: Interesting. So you, sort of, are a little bit behind the scenes, but then also, you are an artist yourself. So you span both worlds?

ZY: Yes. I kind of kid to my friends that I have done almost everything in this industry, but nothing has been very successful. You know, from the subtitles operator, to translator, to interpreter, to project manager, to producer, to artist, and then to curator, presenter, blah blah blah.

OF: And is that a linear line between these career paths? Or is it just random?

ZY: If there is a linear line, then I created it myself. But I haven't got tired of what I'm doing at the moment.

OF: Well, let's talk about that. When you say that you are doing performance arts in a museum, that to me is confusing, because it's performance art, but you're doing it in a museum context.

ZY: Yes, I'm confused myself. As you know, I mean, the museum is mostly for visual arts - for paintings, for videos, or installations - and performing arts, as we know, normally you do it in the theatre. But there's not a very clear distinction between the two worlds, and I think the borders are kind of blurring. And compare to what we see in the theatre or conventional theatre - particularly drama - the performing arts as we see or participate in museums are more open, and you have much more space or room to try new things. And the two worlds are learning from each other. As we know, if you go to a theatre, normally you sit in the auditorium or in the seat, quite seriously, and you see the performance taking place on stage. The relationship between the audience and the performers is one-way, or we call it a 'proscenium' performance.

OF: Right.

ZY: But now they see what things are taking place in the museum, and the museum performance in the museum, and normally there are many focuses. Instead of one leading role - like the actor or actress that you concentrate on - in the museum, you can choose your focus, instead of being forced to see what it is.

OF: And is that what defines it? Because it's so hard to define what is 'performance art'. It almost sounds like not just a mixture between theatre and art, but also dance, right?

ZY: Yeah, there are more and more choreographers and dancers who like to engage themselves in the gallery and museum, trying to find a new way with their language, the dance vocabulary. And the experience, I would say, is very much different. As we all talk about nowadays, this 'immersive theatre' thing you know.

OF: Right.

ZY: But that this is a term I question, in a way. You know, for me, every performance is immersive. If it is not then it is not a performance. Yeah. As we know, during the COVID-19 situation, there were no performances right? All theatres shut down, all the museums shut down, and they put the stuff online. You see performance through the screen. This kind of performance, I would say, is not immersive, or it is not 'performance'. It's just, at the moment, an alternative, what we have got used to. Maybe in the future there will be some new possibility, I do not shut down this possibility. But at the moment, I'd say, it is not performance. It's still more like video art.

OF: Right. So what you're saying then is, a visual art performance is something which exists very much between the artist and the audience in that space.

ZY: Yeah. And we would not really call them 'audience' in a way. I would, like, call them 'participants'. And artists, sometimes they are like a facilitator'. They're not educating you. They are trying to share the space with you. And without the spectators or participants, the piece is not complete.

OF: Which means it's different every time, which is similar to a theatre piece, right?

ZY: Yeah. Yeah.

OF: Maybe the best way would be to think about some examples of some of the work that you ZY: A performance called Father's House, a performance of about 20 hours - three continuous days - 10 to 12 performers, performing with the works of the exhibition. The artist, they created this Father's House', huge installations - paintings, installations, and all kinds of artworks - which occupies the museum. And then there are artists performing with the works.

OF: Right.

ZY: It activates the exhibition. As we all know, the exhibition is not moving, right? It's objects. We call it exhibitions, it's like the presentation of objects. But performance is also an exhibition. But it's a presentation of bodies. You know, it's really hard. It's beyond words. You have to see it.

OF: Yeah, this is the trick, like, how do we put something which is so abstract into words? But you're doing a good job.

ZY: I try my best.

OF: I guess my question would be then, so why this art form? Like, even using these examples, what could the artist achieve using performance art, which they couldn't have achieved using dance, using theatre, using other forms of visual art?

ZY: Everything has its own limits, or borders. So I think I keep looking for an environment where there will be new things that could be initiated, instead of having to repeat things. It has to be provocative to be meaningful. Otherwise, we would be enslaved by consumerism, or whatever. We're not trying to give them the answers, we're not Gods. It's something that helps you to find what is wrong with your life. You need theatre performance to create the bridge that people would try at least trying to realise what is behind. I'm not saying performing arts is the medicine. But at least we create a mirror in which you could see things, at least see yourself.

OF: Provocative has a meaning of, like, counterculture'… it doesn't have to be. It can just provoke an emotion, right? Provoke anything.

ZY: Yeah, you're right. Definitely, I cannot agree with you more. I mean, it's not really about politics. Not really, I mean, it's about your own life, your own community, the family, everything. It does not have to be about politics.

OF: Right, right.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: So you are the curator. So you obviously have the power to bring into this space, the things that you want to see yourself. Or the things that you think the people want to see. Like, which one is it?

ZY: Yes, very good question. I mean, I'm not in the mood to please anybody. Because the Museum, it is not commercial.

OF: Oh, great. So that's quite liberating for you.

ZY: Yeah. It's a non-profit institution. So it's not about pleasing each other, and it's not catering for what they already know.

OF: So the answer to the question then is, you curate for yourself.

ZY: I would not say I curate more for myself, it seems to be that I'm a dictator, no. And I do not own the place, you know, I'm also an employee, I'm working for someone behind the museum, you know. But I think this someone behind the museum' is open enough for me to create something more interesting. Things that you would see in a big theatre, definitely I would not present. And our location, many people feel it's a bit far away from the city centre. So I need a good reason that people would come. So people would have this expectation that they could not see it elsewhere. So this is something I have to keep in mind.

OF: And then what kind of feedback do you get from the audience, from the participants' as you say? Like, do you hear about how it impacts them? How do you measure the impact that this work is having?

ZY: After every project, we will have a review. It would not become just a theatre piece, it would become a project, which means it has something more. Like, we will create some installation works. Maybe later, there will be an exhibition about it. So we extend the possibility of discussion over this topic.

OF: That's interesting, yeah. Because that's when you can then put it on social media, you can then have people interact with it in a different way. So that's when it has a life beyond just that space.

ZY: Yeah. I gradually realised that performance itself is very ephemeral.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: It happened, then it's gone.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: So for each performance, maybe only 100 people. Or 500 at the most. So what? I mean, compared to live streaming, the world where we're now living, right?

OF: Yeah.

ZY: So how could you expand the influence of this art?

OF: That's right. But then at the same time, that's when it gets harder, because the more people you can meet, the more on the radar you are, and then the more politics, right?

ZY: You know me so well.

OF: There's actually an advantage to being under the radar, right?

ZY: Yeah, in a way, that's true. So that's the the conflict, or the paradox, we are facing.

OF: Well, that gives you the passion, because the space itself is the reason you can do some of these works. I mean, tell me about this space. What does the space itself bring to the performance?

ZY: It used to be a factory called 'Shanghai Paper Machine Manufacturer', something like that. They kept it, without renovation. It's not a white box. And it's not a black box. It's more like a grey box.

OF: Right.

ZY: Which gives you the freedom to do both, which makes it interesting. Almost every artist that I bring to this place, they will feel in love with the place all of sudden, which gives me more confidence.

OF: Well, you mentioned other artists, so how do you fit into the world of independent artists here in Shanghai?

ZY: When I was working in the theatre with Nick, I happened to meet kind of a base for independent artists - particularly performing artists - at that time. And I happened to know 张献 [Zhāng Xiàn], 小珂 [Xiǎo Kē], and they have a, a…

OF: Collective?

ZY: A collective of independent artists, we called it, in Chinese we called it 组合嬲 [Zǔhé Niǎo]. So 'Niao Collective' would be more precise.

OF: Niao. So 'Niao', that's not 'bird' right? That's something else.

ZY: Yeah, it sounds like 'bird'. But the 汉子 [hànzi] is different. And most Chinese could not recognise what this 汉子 [hànzi] means. So it combines three characters, there is a male, female, and a male.

OF: Oh, very simple.

ZY: So like, it means differently in different places. With the different dialects, it has a different interpretation. It could be meaning 'playful', or it could mean 'flirting', or in some places it means… 'F'.

OF: Oh, something ruder.

ZY: Yeah, something rude. So, differently. But visually, when you see it, you could see the vitality of what the character suggests.

OF: Right. And it's open to interpretation. I see how that 汉子 [hànzi] itself is something like a piece of performative art.

ZY: Yes, exactly.

OF: OK, well that's smart. And so now, does that collective still exists? Like, what form does it take?

ZY: It still exists. I mean, the reason that it still exists is because it's not a theatre company. It's not led by one person.

OF: Right, right.

ZY: It's more like a community by some artists who share the same value. It's more project based. So when any of us has an idea or initiative to do something, then we will group people together. There will be a project or a piece, or some action or movement. So it's more freestyle. And one of the founders even suggested that anyone could use the name Niao Collective, if they share this value.

OF: Nice. That's great. Well, thank you so much Yuan,

ZY: My pleasure.

OF: And let's move on to Part 2.

ZY: Good.

[Part 2]

OF: Part 2.

ZY: Part 2, OK.

OF: Question 1, what is your favourite China-related fact?

ZY: In a way, our society is more like a performative society. If you really calm yourself down, as an observer or as someone outside, then you observe what is going on these days in China. It's theatre. Particularly when you go outside of China, how they see you as a Chinese and how they see what is happening in China, then you would feel much more about this.

OF: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?

ZY: 马马虎虎 [Mǎmǎhǔhǔ].

OF: You're the first person to say that.

ZY: Really.

OF: But that's normally a phrase that foreigners know, more than Chinese. I never hear Chinese people say that.

ZY: Oh really?

OF: Yeah!

ZY: Oh that's kind of my favourite.

OF: Can you explain it?

ZY: I don't know why, because 马马虎虎 [mǎmǎhǔhǔ] literally means 'horse horse tiger tiger'. It means 'Not doing it well. Not doing it too badly. Something in between'. So I think it's more like the Chinese. There's something in the genes that we don't want to be precise. To push ourselves too hard. It is not bad, so it still kind of qualifies. But the reason I like this is the characters. 'Horse horse tiger tiger', I don't see a thing about why it is 'not something great or something not too bad'.

OF: So where does it come from, do you know?

ZY: No. I would like to keep it a mystery.

OF: Right. What is your favourite destination within China?

ZY: 大理 [Dàlǐ]. It's like a utopia, or it's like a hippie place, where you could relax yourself and to not think too much. And people seem to think differently. And there are many artists working there. And I like the fact that the clouds are so close to you.

OF: Oh right, nice. If you left China, what would you miss the most and what would you miss the least?

ZY: Traditional Chinese breakfast, particularly Shanghai breakfast. 大饼油条 [Dàbǐng yóutiáo], how do you call it in English? You know?

OF: Yeah, it's those oily sort of sticks, right?

ZY: Yeah.

OF: It's made of dough.

ZY: Dough, yeah. For the fat one, there is sweet and salty. For the longer one it's only salty, I think.

OF: Right. But it's quite oily. Like, for me, it's too oily.

ZY: Ah, OK.

OF: Actually Shanghai food has a very bad rap in China, right?

ZY: I don't think so.

OF: Oh, whenever I I talk to somebody not from Shanghai, they always complain about Shanghai food.

ZY: Too sweet?

OF: Yes.

ZY: They haven't tried, like, the food in 无锡 [Wúxī] or in 江苏 [Jiāngsū] Province. It's sweeter.

OF: Really, OK. And anything that you would not miss if you left?

ZY: The noise.

OF: Right.

ZY: In the construction site. Wherever you go, there's this noise. Something being demolished. Something being constructed. You move to a new house, and your neighbour is renovating… ach!

OF: Is there something that still surprises you about modern life in China?

ZY: Technology. But in a way you know I mean, I believe we cannot live without technology. The philosopher who just passed away, Bernard Stiegler, he just said technology is the poison. But on the other hand it's the solution. So you have to get along with it.

OF: What is the best or worst purchase you have recently made?

ZY: So, I love this experience when I work with some artist and they would give their piece of work to me as a gift. So I appreciate that a lot, I will say, this kind of 'economy of gifts'.

OF: I love that, thank you. What is your favourite place to go out, to eat or drink or just hang out?

ZY: So that would be home. I mean, 'home' means my home and my friends' home. And I even think of curating something about that in the future. We can blur the border of public and privacy, if we can bring performers to people's homes. That's what I mean.

OF: Mmm. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?

ZY: Let me send you.

OF: OK, here It is. Oh, OK. Now hang on, let me see, it says '大脑一片空白 [dànǎo yīpiàn kòngbái]'.

ZY: Yes.

OF: OK, phew, I could read it. What does that mean?

ZY: That means "nothing in my head". Or "I cannot think of anything".

OF: Oh, I like it. So if somebody asks you a question, you don't want to or you can't answer, you just send that.

ZY: Yeah, yeah. It's like, when there's nothing on the TV screen.

OF: Great. important one: what is your favourite song to sing at? KTV?

ZY: I hate KTV.

OF: But come on. If you drink too many beers, are you never tempted to have a sing?

ZY: Of course I would, they would coerce me to sing.

OF: That's it.

ZY: You know, I would sing 'You Are Not Alone'.

OF: Oh.

ZY: You know that?

OF: I do, Michael Jackson, right?

ZY: Yes. Yes.

OF: Why that one?

ZY: Cuz people, I mean, when you group together and you're singing karaoke, you are lonely in a way. Yeah, but you're saying you're not alone. Yeah, for me, it's…

OF: Ah, so it really touched your heart, actually.

ZY: Yes, it's touching in a way. Yeah. The song itself is touching. Yeah, it's a good song, yeah.

OF: Thank you. And finally, what China-related media or sources of information do you use?

ZY: I have to confess, I read no more papers. I mean, journals, magazines, all these sort of thing.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: I spend most of the time getting information through social media.

OF: Yeah. And so even in a specific niche like contemporary art, everyone still just relies on WeChat, right?

ZY: Yeah. There are periodicals, but I don't think people are reading it seriously. People will take a look, but they will not spend much time on it.

OF: Well, thank you so much, Yuan, I really enjoyed that.

ZY: Thank you. I enjoyed it, too. It's really hard for a Chinese to talk about China when he is living in China.

OF: Yes.

ZY: There's a poem by a famous Chinese poet. It's hard to see the true face of Lushan Mountain when you are in the mountain.

OF Right, I like it.

ZY: And what I'm talking about at the moment, I think, is mostly to my life experience in Shanghai. And Shanghai, to my knowledge, is not China.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: It's like New York is not America or Berlin is not Germany, in a way. But more, Shanghai is not China.

OF: Absolutely. I mean, Shanghai has more in common with New York than it has with Anhui Province, right?

ZY: Indeed.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: Finally, the only thing I want to ask you is, out of all the people you know in China, who would you recommend that I interview in the next season of Mosaic of China?

OF: I would introduce Mr. Wang Yiquan. We all call him 'Xiaoquan'. And now I call him 'Mr. President'. He is awesome. He's not only an artist, not only a curator, but he is also an entrepreneur. He was born in Beijing. You know the story between the North and the South. People in the South will not live in the North, North would not live in the South. But he, as a Beijing-nese, chose to live in Shanghai, and became very active. So I think he's special.

OF: Thank you. I look forward to meeting 'Xiaoquan', maybe I shouldn't call him that. Thanks very much.

ZY: Thank you.

[Outro]

OF: Another big thanks to Zhang Yuan, least of all for being the first person to mention the phrase 马马虎虎 [mǎmǎhǔhǔ] meaning 'so-so'. I had been expecting someone to say this phrase long before Episode 07 of Season 02, it's definitely a favourite, especially among foreigners in China. I did my research, and this phrase apparently dates back to a story from the 宋 Sòng Dynasty, so that's around 1,000AD. The story goes that an artist was painting a tiger when his friend came and asked him to paint a horse. Instead of starting a new picture, the artist simply drew the body of a horse onto the tiger's head that he had already painted. The outcome was… meh: 马马虎虎 [mǎmǎhǔhǔ].

The other thing I wanted to clarify was the proper translation of 大饼油条 [Dàbǐng yóutiáo], the Shanghai breakfast food that Yuan said he would miss the most if he left China. The best translation for this should actually be 'flatbread fritters' rather than what I said, which was 'those oily sort of sticks'. So there you go, that was me being decidedly 马马虎虎 [mǎmǎhǔhǔ].

OK here are some clips from the PREMIUM version of the show, please subscribe at https://patreon.com/mosaicofchina if you want to hear the full interview.

[Clip 1]

ZY: Private museums became a phenomenon. And no one knows how long it will last.

OF: Oh right.

[Clip 2]

ZY: We are recreating the life of 'leftover' girls in China…

OF: Oh yes.

ZY: … Inspired by Ibsen's play.

[Clip 3]

ZY: These people, these new members, they will create their own festivals.

OF: Nice.

[Clip 4]

ZY: So in this respect, I'm very much provocative.

[Clip 5]

ZY: It's kind of that I got a marriage, you know. I married my parents during these three or four months.

[End of Audio Clips]

And finally, today's random connection with an episode from the past is that Yuan's favourite karaoke song, Michael Jackson's 'You Are Not Alone' is exactly the same as the song chosen by Astrid Poghosyan, the violinist from Season 01 Episode 04. I could never have predicted that, out of all the things that would come up twice in this podcast, it would be Guns N' Roses last week, and Michael Jackson today. You guys make me want to scream.

Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell. Coming up is an excerpt from my catch-up chat with Nick Yu from the Shanghai Dramatic Arts Centre. And please listen to Nick's full episode from Season 01 if you thought I was just being mean to Yuan about the reputation for Shanghainese food. Nick is very clear about his opinion on the matter. Also, we'll be taking a break for a few weeks now, as we're heading into the Chinese New Year period. So 恭喜发财 [gōngxǐ fācái] and 春节快乐 [chūnjié kuàilè] to all of you, and I'll see you back here again later in February.

[Catch-Up Interview]

OF: So hello, Nick.

Nick Yu: Hi, Oscar.

OF: Nice to see you.

NY: Yeah, long time.

OF: Yeah, you work about 100 metres from my house.

NY: Yeah.

OF: So whenever I walk past the Dramatic Arts Theatre, I always think of you, I always look for you, but I never see you. You're always busy inside.

NY: Somewhere.

OF: Well, I want to ask you about your life since we did our first recording.

NY: Yeah.

OF: The first thing I wanted to ask you was, so during Coronavirus, how many plays did you write?

NY: Ah, yeah, that's a really good question. Because, you know, especially in February, the whole month, I stayed at home alone. So I had plenty of time to write, to read. And also I finished my PhD in February.

OF: What?

NY: Yeah.

OF: Congratulations!

NY: Thank you. And also I wrote about four plays.

OF: Four.

NY: Yeah.

OF: In COVID, some people, they were very creative, and other people, they were blocked and they could not create anything.

NY: Yeah.

OF: You were quite successful in creating. Of course, I knew you would be.

NY: I have two different parts. The one part was with the theatre being closed. But we needed to prepare, and we needed to deal with all the things that happened during that time. That makes us do everything for the audience, how to get the audience back. We cannot do everything online. During that period, we still had something to try. So we tried everything to try to get the audience to go back to the theatre. But now, the situation seems to get better and better.

OF: Right. And this is where we in China are in a luckier position then many people outside.

NY: Yeah. For us, because we have lots of programming we decided one year ahead.

OF: Yeah, right, you plan so far ahead.

NY: Yeah. But we have a lot of artists from abroad.

OF: Right.

NY: So this is a big problem for us. So we still cancelled.

OF: Yes.

NY: We cancelled more than 50 plays.

OF: Oh, wow.

NY: Yeah.

OF: Yes, I didn't think about that. In my mind, when you opened, you could just put on a programme. But if the actors and the artists were from overseas, then you're still stuck.

NY: Yeah.

OF: So in that case, do you have a plan A, and then you have a backup plan B?

NY: Yeah, we already have C, D, lots of plans.

OF: Wow. Yeah. And then, did you find it difficult or were you just focused on your work?

NY: I think this was not really difficult for my life. I think every time when we go outside we must to wear the mask, that became a habit. I think it's a good habit. We don't really have the 'flu, and other things become less and less. I think that's a good habit.

OF: Yeah, it just shows the people in China were very adaptable. They adapted very quickly when Coronavirus hit. And then they adapted very quickly once it started to be a little bit freer.

NY: Yeah.

OF: So it was interesting to see. Well, I am releasing this in parallel to the episode of Zhang Yuan, who was the referral that you gave me for Season 2.

NY: Yeah.

OF: I just want to say thank you again, Nick. I'm really glad that you can continue being part of the Mosaic family.

NY: OK, thank you.