Musk, Ma differ on status of computers vs humans

Dong Jun / SHINE

Alibaba’s billionaire founder Jack Ma believes that human beings would still have the upper hand and dominate the machine in the future but Tesla’s CEO Elon Musk is not so optimistic.

The two illustrious figures in the tech sector exchanged thoughts on topics from AI and future education to Mars missions.

Musk cited examples of the chess computer DeepBlue, Alpha Go and Alpha Zero when pressed by Ma to name objects or things made by human beings that were smarter than humans.

“(One of the) most important mistakes I see people making is assuming they’re smart,” the Tesla founder said during a joint session with Ma at the WAIC in Shanghai. He said it was pointless to play chess with a machine, which was like “fighting Zeus.”

“Computers are already much smarter than humans in so many dimensions,” he said, arguing that intellectual pursuits by humans were getting smaller and smaller and would one day be surpassed by the computers.

But Ma countered him by saying that a computer may be clever but a human being is much smarter.

“Clever is very academic and knowledge-driven while smart is experience-driven, and the computer, after all, was invented and created by a human being,” Ma said.

Humans created cars and it’s stupid to compete with a car to see which one runs faster, Ma said, adding that unlike some people who are very sad that computers are surpassing human chess players, he thinks “we should do things we’re good at” instead of competing and comparing ourselves to computers.

On the looming prospects of AI stealing human jobs and causing massive layoffs, Ma challenged the assumption that there would be a job shortage in the future.

The invention of electricity gave humans more spare time, so “you can go to a dance party in the evening,” argued Ma. Likewise, he believes more powerful AI will give humans “more time to enjoy being human beings.”

“I think people should work three days a week, four hours a day,” Ma said. “I don’t think we’ll need a lot of jobs at that time. The jobs we’ll need are to make people happier, help them experience life and enjoy being human beings.”

Meanwhile, AI will be needed for many jobs undesired by human workers, according to Ma. Especially as life science advances are set to push life expectancy over 100, intelligent robots will take up the laborious jobs of caring for the elderly.

Musk said over time AI will make jobs pointless. “Probably the last job that will remain will be writing AI software. Then eventually the AI will just write its own software.”

The two, however, agreed on concerns over population, with both saying that population decrease may bring next big problems in the coming 10 or 20 years. “Even with 1.4 billion population (in China), the speed of population decrease could quickly pick up in the future,” Ma said. 

Below is the full video and text of the debate between Musk and Ma.

Elon: Actually, I'm told that, does AI mean love? Like is that a name?

Jack: Yeah, I hate the word AI called "artificial intelligence". I call it Alibaba Intelligence!

Elon: Yeah, that might end up being true. You never know. I think, generally, people underestimate the capability of AI. They sort of think that it's a smart human. But it's really much, much more than that. It will be much smarter than the smartest human. It will be like, can a chimpanzee really understand humans? Not really, you know. We just seem like strange aliens. They mostly just care about other chimpanzees. This will be how it is, more or less, in a relative -- in fact, if the difference is only that small, that would be amazing. Probably it's much, much greater. The biggest mistake that I see artificial intelligence researchers making is assuming that they're intelligent. They're not, compared to AI. So like, a lot of them cannot imagine something smarter than themselves, but AI will be vastly smarter. Vastly. So what do you do with a situation like that? I'm not sure, you know. But I hope they're nice. I mean I have, obviously, some... I think, in a situation where, if you know the old saying "If you can't beat em', join em'", you know that's what Neurolink is about. Can we go along for the ride with AI? I mean, I really think that there should be other companies like Neurolink essentially to create a high bandwidth interface to the brain. Right now we are already a cyborg, people don't realize we are already a cyborg because we are so well integrated with our phones and our computers. The phone is almost like an extension of yourself. If you forget your phone, it's like a missing limb. But the bandwidth, the communication bandwidth of the phone is very low, especially input. So, in fact, input bandwidth to your computer has actually gone down because of typing with two thumbs as opposed to ten fingers is a bit reduction in bandwidth. Input bandwidth has gone up because of video and imagery. So input bandwidth is many orders of magnitude greater than output bandwidth, but at a certain point, if... assuming that benign scenario with AI, we will just be too slow, you know. It's like if, to something, let's say a computer that has like an exoflop of, many exoflops of computer capability, a millisecond is an eternity and to us it's nothing. So, you know, I always think like human speech, to a computer, will sound like very slow, tonal wheezing. It's kind of like whale sounds. What's our bandwidth, like a few hundred bits per second, basically. Maybe a very kilobits per second if you're going to be generous. So, whereas a computer can easily communicate at a terabit level. So, the computer will just get impatient, if nothing else. It would be like talking to a tree, that's humans. Barely getting any information out of it, basically, with speech.

Jack: Yeah, I'm almost amazed by what your vision of the technology. I'm not a tech guy, I think I'm all about life. I think AI is going to open a new chapter of the society of the world that people try to understand ourselves better, rather than the outside world. And, it's so difficult to predict the future. 99.99% of the predictions that human beings have about the history about the future, all wrong.

Elon: Including that one?

Jack: Oh yeah! The 0.00% of the predictions are right. They're right because by accident.

Elon: Yeah but it's also true that 80% of statistics are false.

Jack: So, my meaning...

Elon: What a cold room. C'mon guys, that was a joke!

Jack: I'm happy about the artificial intelligence, or the Alibaba intelligence, that's going to understand the inside of the human better. So, when people worry a lot about artificial intelligence, people should have more confidence in themselves, because I think, if a lot of solutions we don't have today, but there will be solutions tomorrow. We don't have solutions, but the young people will have solutions. So I'm quite optimistic, and I don't think artificial intelligence is a threat, I don't think AI is something terrible, but human beings are smart enough to learn that. And to me, Artificial Intelligence is just like, people worry a lot about this today are those people I call them, called... college smartness. People like us, street smart, we're never scared of that, we think it's a great fun and we want to change ourselves to embrace it.

Elon: I dunno man, it's like famous last words. Let me tell you, AI is, I mean, if you look at the rate of advancement of computers is insane. A good example would be video games. If you go back 40 years ago, 50 years ago maybe, you have Pong. That was just rectangles and a square. Now you've got photo realistic, real-time simulations with millions of people playing simultaneously. If you assume any rate of improvement at all, the games will be indistinguishable from reality. You will not be able to tell the difference. Either that or civilization will end. Those are the two options. But even if the rate of technology improvement slowed down by a thousand, okay advance a thousand years, or 10,000 years, this is still very tiny. Civilization has been around for, probably, you know arguably 7,000 years or something like that, if you count it from the first time there was any writing, any recorded symbols, besides cave paintings. That's a very tiny amount of time, considering the universe is 13.8 billion years old. I mean, if civilization lasted for only a million years, we would only increment the third decimal point after 13.8 billion years, if we lasted for a million years. So, that seems like a long time, given that we've only been around for 7 thousand years. It's been kind of a roller coaster on the civilization front. So, I mean I'm not trying to be, I'm a naturally optimistic person to be clear, I'm not saying you know, doom and gloom. I'm just saying, this is the apparent pattern, the rate of change of technology is incredibly fast. It is outpacing our ability to understand it. Is that good or bad, I don't know. I mean it seemed to me, some time ago, that you could sort of think of humanity as a biological bootloader for biological super-intelligence. If, for those who know what a bootloader is, a very tiny piece of code without which the computer cannot start. It's sort of like the minimal bit of code necessary for a computer to start. Like, you couldn't involve silicon circuits, they needed to be biology to get there.

Jack: Good. Well let's talk about something fun, I admire, that you want to go on the Mars. Go to the Mars? Yeah, so, what will the life look like on Mars? Are you both moving? What do you think about that? Actually I'm not interested in Mars, I just came back from there so. I'm more interested on the Earth, the things what's going to happening here. So why are you so curious about the Mars?

Elon: Well, I think the thing about Mars is that, I think it's important for us to take the set of actions that are most likely to continue consciousness into the future. What increases the probability of consciousness, of continuing into the future. I think we should not take it for granted that consciousness will continue, because we have no encountered any aliens. Where are the aliens? This is the Fermi Paradox. This is one of the most important questions: How come we've not found any aliens? There's people out there that think we've found aliens. Trust me, I would know, we have not, okay? People ask me: Have you been to Area 51? Okay, please. SpaceX actually has Area 59, it's even better, eight better than 51. So, among the set of actions we can take that are likely to increase the scope and scale of consciousness such that we are better able to understand the nature of the universe. One of those actions is to become a multi-planet species, or ensure that life is multi-planetary. Not because I think, it's not from the standpoint of just being an escape hatch or because I think that Earth is doomed, but there is a certain probability, that is irreducible, that something may happen to Earth, despite our best intentions, despite everything we try to do, that there's a probability at a certain point that some, either external force or some internal unforced error causes civilization to be destroyed. Or sufficiently impaired such that it can no longer extend to another planet. It's hard to say, let me put it another way: this is the first time in the four and a half billion year history of Earth, that it's been possible to extend life beyond Earth. Before this it was not possible. How long will this window be open? It may be open for a long time, or it may be open for a short time. I think it would be wise to assume that it is open for a short time, and let us secure the future of consciousness such that the light of consciousness is not extinguished. And we should try to do this as quickly as possible. That's my view.

Jack: Good. It's so difficult to secure the future of the Earth but we can secure the future of the next 100 years. I'm not a person that, I admire your courage for exploring the Mars, but I admire a lot of people spend efforts on improving the Earth. It's great to send one million people to the Mars, but we have to care about the 7.4 billion people on the Earth. How can we make the world more sustainable? And I'm not that fond of the Mars because I think it's easy to go to the Mars when you go on the top of the hills or of the building, just one step you go to Mars. We will never be able to come back, so that's my view.

Elon: Yeah, that's not how it works, though.

Jack: And, so... also, I hate to go to the Himalayas when you climb on it. I think something, when it is ready I will go there to look. But, I think people spending more time on the Earth think about, no matter how long the civilization of the human beings will be, like one million or two million of half million years, we only have 100 years. So, we cannot solve all the problems for future but we have to be responsible for the future, but we should care more about how we can enjoy better. My view is that by the AI, when human beings understand ourselves better then we can improve the world better. Last 200 years, human beings tried to understand the outside world better, understand the other people better, but I think what I feel excited about AI is that AI is to understand people. The inside of the human beings, the Earth I heard you got to dig a tunnel deep in the Earth which is amazing. I think, anyhow, every time when I read the news about you are interested in the outside space, I look at you with great respect. We need a hero like you but we need more heroes like us working hard on the Earth, improving things every day. That's what I want.

Elon: Sure, I mean to be clear, I'm very pro-Earth. When I say us becoming a multi-planet species, or making life multi-, extending life beyond Earth, expanding the scope of scale of consciousness, from a resource standpoint I'm talking about less than 1% of Earth's resources should be dedicated to making life multi-planetary or making consciousness multi-planetary. I think it should be, like, somewhere in between how much we spend on lipstick and how much we spend on healthcare. For the preservation of consciousness we should spend maybe slightly more than we spend on cosmetics. I'm pro-cosmetics, but you know, there's probably worth spending at least half a percent of Earth's GDP on extending life to be multi-planetary. Maybe 1%, I'd say, seems like a good use of resources. But, you have like more resources spent on Earth, so it's not like it's, you know, somehow gonna fundamentally impair Earth. If just 1% of Earth resources, on that order, should be enough to make like multi-planetary. It seems like a wise investment for the future. Obviously I spend a lot of my time on sustainable energy with Tesla, with electric cars and solar batteries and that kind of thing, and I'm really excited to be here in Shanghai for the Shanghai gigafactory, which is, I think, the Tesla China team has done an amazing job, really mind-blowing. I'm just astounded by how quick the job is and how much progress has been made, and I think it's a good story for the world to see like look, look how much progress you can make in China. This is extremely impressive, my hat is off you know, you guys rock so. I've never seen so many people so fast in my life before. I've seen some crazy things so, I really think China's future looks very impressive and there's also some great progress on entrepreneurial rocket companies in China as well, and I believe two have made orbit. It's very hard to make orbit, achieving orbit: I have great respect. This is very hard.

Jack: Pick up another topic?

Elon: Sure.

Jack: Jobs. So what new jobs will be created because of AI, or has the change already started? What do you think? I think, why we need that many jobs? My view is that the jobs actually, every technological revolution people start to worry. The last 200 years we worried about new technology gonna take away all the jobs. Actually, we made a lot of jobs. Second, because of the industrial revolution, jobs created a lot of jobs. What I think is the next 20-30 years, human beings will live much longer, the life science technology is gonna make people live probably 100 - 120 years. That may not be a good thing because you've got your grandfather's grandfather still working hard. But the challenge is, why should we have a lot of jobs? I think people should work three days a week, four hours a day. When we have electricity, the power of electricity is that we made people more time, so you could go to the karaoke in the evening, you could go to the dancing party in the evening. So people, because of electricity, people have more time. I think, because of AI, people will have more time enjoying being human beings. In your life, in my life, I think I've visited probably 300 cities in my life. My father visited 30 cities, my grandfather visited only three cities, so my grandchildren probably will visit 3,000 cities. He's always on the Tesla. He's always on the roads, always traveling around. So I don't think we need a lot of jobs, at that time the jobs we need is make people happier, make people experience their lives, enjoy the human beings, so I don't worry about the jobs a lot. First, we're gonna have enough jobs. Second, we don't need a lot of jobs. Third, there's a very interesting thing, because we will probably talk about life: in the agriculture period, the average age was like 30/35 years old. In the industrial period, technological revolution, people can live 70 years. So in the artificial intelligence period, people can live 120 years, I think. Now the problem comes, when people's lives are getting better, people don't want to have children. When grand-grandfather is there you don't wanna have children. At that time we are gonna have a lot of jobs with nobody wanna do it, so we need AI to take care of the old guys for sure. You will not be happy, or you will happy, because when your grand-grandfather says "Oh I need to work tomorrow" then that's a disaster. So, I think we cannot predict the future but we should be ready that we are going to enter into the era that everyone can live 120 years, and we have new, more new problems that come up. So that's my view about jobs, don't worry about it, we will have jobs.

Elon: Yeah. I think, over time AI will make jobs kind of pointless, probably the last job that will remain will be writing AI software and then eventually the AI will just write its own software. So I dunno, I suppose I'd recommend studying engineering, physics, that kind of thing, or working on something where people just want to interact with other people. People enjoy, fundamentally, interacting with other people so if you're working on something that involves people or engineering, it's probably a good approach. Art, of course. Like I said, I think we're going to have to figure out this Neurolink situation otherwise we will be left behind. It's very important we do this quickly, I think time, we don't have much time.

Jack: We don't have much time of what?

Elon: We don't have much time to solve the neurolink...

Jack: Oh, yeah.

Elon: If you think of like, technology and technology awareness, there's like, it's like, if there was like a topological mode of technology awareness, there's mostly flat with a few short buildings and then some very tall spires, very tall spires. And unless you're on that very tall spire, it's not obvious what the topology is.

Jack: Yeah, I never worry about the things that I cannot solve. I let other people solve it. If nobody can solve it, just let it be. That's my life. Let's talk about education, I'm quite interested about the education. So, what knowledge or skills will be useful to master the future? Do you have any advice for young professionals who want to pursue a career in AI? Young professionals. I don't think we will have professional of AI in the future. Well, I worry a lot about, people worry about jobs but I worry about education. All the education systems, the things we teach our kids, the way we teach our kids, are mainly designed for the industrial period. And I'm sure the machine will be much more clever than human beings in the future. How can human beings do better? Human beings should be smarter, human beings should be wiser. So, how can we be human beings to be wiser or smarter? I think that we should change the way of education, change the things, 'cos in the past we focused a lot about remember things, computer can remember better than you can. Want to calculate it faster? Computer can calculate faster. We want to run faster? Computer can run much faster than you are. So if human beings can have confidence, by being more creative, more constructive, so how can we teach our kids to be more creative, constructive? And I think this is the key of the education, and I want spending more time on training kids on arts, on painting, on singing, on dancing. You know, all these are the creative things that make people live like humans. Don't worry about machines. For sure we should understand one thing: That man can never make another man. Computer is a computer, computer is just a toy. Man cannot even make a mosquito so we should have confidence. Computer have chips, man have the heart. It's the heart where the wisdom comes from, so I think in the next ten or twenty years, human beings from every country, every government should focus on reform the education system, making sure our kids be able to find a jobs in the future. Being able to live the life that only working three days a week, four hours a day and that is very important. If we do not change the education system that we are in, we are all going to be in trouble. That's my view, and don't worry about it: we will change it.

Elon: I would say, try to learn as much as possible that allows you to predict the future, or make the future. As the saying goes: The best way to predict the future is to make it. And then assess whether what you're learning is enabling you to predict the future with less error, are you less wrong? We are always wrong, to a certain degree, but can you reduce the error on your future predictions? I think that's the way to look at education. Of course, if it was both creative, create the future and predict the future. So that includes art and all those other things. But close the loop on being less wrong about the future, I would say that's the right way to think about education. I mean, down the road with Neurolink you could just upload any subject instantly, so it would be like the Matrix. You wanna fly a helicopter? No problem. Well, helicopters will fly themselves but, you know, if you wanted to do whatever, any given skill, you just upload it instantly. The way education works now, it's extremely low bandwidth, it's extremely slow. Lectures are the worst, really. Yeah. Try to predict the future with less error, this is very hard. As you were saying, I'm not sure it's 99.9% but it's not very good, generally, our prediction of the future, but I think often people don't try. The first thing is, try. If you don't try, hey, you know, you gotta try and then adjust based on the error of your predictions.

Jack: I think just to try is very good. We should always have the confidence to try the future, and I never worry about the errors and the mistakes. Errors are mistakes are the best assets of human lives, and humans, I think, people worry about the disasters that AI is going to bring, I think it's not the disasters, it's the mistakes that human beings make. And trust, human beings will be able to correct the mistakes and improve themselves. That, we need education, and this is what we think. In China today, we have 1,800 new babies born every year, which is not enough. We need to have like much more than that, but I think the best resources of the human beings, or the best resources on the Earth, are not the coals, not the oil, not the electricity, it's the human brain. How can we make the human brain more creative, constructive? How can we make sure that the machines are always the toys and tools or humans, rather than control. So, I never in my life, and especially in the last two years when people talk about AI say human beings will be controlled by machines, I never think about it. I think it's impossible, right. It's impossible, because human beings, they are different. Machines, they are invented by human beings, and according to the science, humans can never create another animal that is smarter than humans, especially when you have so many smart people. It's impossible to make another smart people.

Elon: I very much disagree with that.

Jack: Okay. That's good.

Elon: I mean, the first thing we should assume is that we are bred out, and we can definitely make things smarter than ourselves. There didn't used to be humans, our earliest civilizations were very primitive. We didn't have any technology really, we were just like running around trying to not get eaten, or trying to just survive over winter. Now we have like heating and we grow food, this is all new stuff so, you know, things have obviously gotten way more smarter than the past. Way smarter. So, that's going to continue, we are not the last step in evolution so, the most important mistake I see smart people making is assuming that they are smart. They're not.

Jack: Yeah so, give me example what animals or things that a human being made that is smarter than human beings.

Elon: Well, computers are already much smarter than people on so many dimensions, we just keep moving the goal posts. We used to think, like for example, being good at chess was an example of a smart human. And then Kasparov was crushed by Deep Blue in '97. That was a long time ago, 22 years. I mean, right now your cellphone could crush the world champion at chess, literally. Go! used to be thought of as something that humans were better at than computers, then Lee Sedol was beaten 4:1 by AlphaGo. Then there's Alpha Zero, Alpha Zero crushed AlphaGo 100:0. Now it's just pointless because it just keeps playing itself. Trying to play a computer at Go! is like trying to fight Zeus: it's not going to work, we are hopelessly inadequate. In terms of rendering, basically there's just a smaller and smaller corner of intellectual pursuits that humans are better than computers and every year that gets smaller and smaller and soon we will be far, far surpassed in every single way. Guaranteed. Or civilization will end, those are the two possibilities.

Jack: Okay, yeah. My view is that computer may be clever, but human beings are much smarter.

Elon: Yeah, definitely not.

Jack: Clever is very academic, is knowledge-driven. Smarter is experience-driven. Computer is clever, but it's human being, we invented the computer. I never see a computer invented a human being. This is my first point. Second point is that about Go! and playing chess. It's stupid to compete with a computer and play Go! Just like a hundred years ago, when human being created cars, so human being said: I can run faster than a car. It's impossible, it's only stupid people to compete with a car to run faster. Go! is designed for human to play with human, right? The chess is designed for human to human. Why should a human to fight against a computer? So, I never played chess or Go! with computer. I'll be happy to see two computers fight each other, I'm not interested in play Go! with chess. So I told those guys they are very sad, oh computer will be smart with human beings because computer can play chess better. I think you are stupid to compete with that, don't do that! So, this, we always do things we are good at.

Elon: Sure, okay well why don't you give me an example of something that humans are better than a computer at, and then let's see if that happens.

Jack: Well, humans, computer is only one of the clever tools that human created, and computers are clever, but there will be more tools that human beings will create, much clever than computers. That's my view.

Elon: Okay, well let me tell you my view on AI is essentially, you can view the advancement of AI as solving things with increasing degrees of freedom, so the thing with the most degrees of freedom is reality, but AI is steadily advanced, solving things that have more and more degrees of freedom, so obviously it's something like checkers, was very easy to solve. That we could solve with classical software, classical computing, not really all that challenging and in fact there is the complete solution for checkers, meaning it is literally every version of checkers is known. And then there's chess which is also, had many, many more degrees of freedom than checkers, many orders of magnitude more than checkers, but still, I would say a really low order of magnitude. Low degree of freedom game. Then there's Go! which had many orders of magnitude more degrees of freedom than chess, so it's really just stepping through orders of magnitude, of degrees of freedom. This is the way to, I think, view the advancement of intelligence. Really, you get to the point where you just completely simulate a person in every way possible, like many people simultaneously. In fact, I mean obviously there's a strong argument we're in a simulation right now. Sort of reminds me of that joke of like, you know if life was a video game what would be the review, and it's like "Well the graphics are incredible, the plot is confusing, and the re-spawn takes a long time." You know, that's a video game. That's life, in a video game. Re-spawn takes 20 years, it takes 20-years to spawn a human being and have them be fully conscious. I'm worried about the birth rate, which you alluded to earlier. Most people think we have like too many people on the planet, but actually this is an outdated view. Assuming that AI is fine, that there's a benevolent future with AI, I think the biggest problem the world will face in 20 years is population collapse. Collapse. I want to emphasize this. The biggest issue in 20 years will be population collapse. Not explosion, collapse. It's very easy to see what the world will look like in 20 years, because humans have a 20 year boot sequence, so like: Who was born last year? Okay, now you know what the world will look like in 20 years. It's that easy.

Jack: I absolutely agree with that the population problem is going to facing huge challenge. 1.4 billion people in China, it sounds a lot, but I think next 20 years will see this thing will bring big trouble to China, and the population decreasing of the whole, the speed of population decreasing is going to speed up. It could collapse.

Elon: Accelerating collapse. The common rebuttal is, well what about immigration? From where? You know.

Jack: You wanna go to space, you know to Mars...

Elon: Mars needs people, you know. There's zero people there right now, it's a machine planet - there's only robots there.

Jack: This is something that we should pay special attention, that's why the 80 million new babies born in China, only like 1% or something, we should spend more time treat life people. But also, I think about the AI, there's another thing which Elon, I... in my company, in our company, AI, Alibaba Intelligence, we think, with things with order, with things with logic, machine can always do better, AI can do better. But things without order, without logic, human being can do better. For example, when you love someone there's no reason normally. I just love him, I just love her. I have no reason. But when I hate somebody, when I wanna do bad things on somebody, there's logic. When there's logic, AI can do better. What we do on our Ant Finance, we teach machine all the bad things that bad guys want to do. Machine can learn quickly and arrest all the bad guys we need to. But when you want to do good things, not necessary.

Elon: AI means love. （爱）

Jack: That's absolutely right, so that is why the world, if the AI can bring love, which I called it in the past, if you wanna be a successful person you have to be EQ and IQ, right? In the future, if you want to survive in this world, you have to be the LQ, the Q of love. That's important too, otherwise you cannot survive that.

Elon: I agree that love is the answer of many songs about love.

Jack: Well I've picked up the final one, another topic.

Announcer: Excuse me gentlemen, due to the time is extremely limited so we only have five minutes left so, last question please.

Jack: You wanna pick the last? You wanna talk about your cars, or autonomy?

Elon: This feels like one of those steps in a video game where you've got to like pick a path, a choice. I choose life.

Jack: Okay, life. So how much longer do you think people can live for with the help of AI. Can AI help with environmental sustainability? Can you...

Elon: I think, first of all humans will solve environmental sustainability. I do not mean to suggest complacency, or that we just take it easy, in fact this is a self-fulfilling or unfulfilling prophecy. We must take immediate and dramatic action, and continue the momentum towards environmental sustainability. And China is actually the world leader in this, in fact I'm not sure how well it is known outside of China just how much China is the world leader in environmental sustainability. It's extremely impressive, I mean I think half of all the electric cars in the world were made in China last year or something like that, so... you know, I don't mean to suggest complacency, but I do think humans can and will solve sustainability. If we can do the neurolink, age will not matter that much. You should simply save your state, and restore your state, like a saved game, essentially. Something very close to that. I do think we can solve biological aging, if we really wanted to. You'd have to make DNA changes but it's, we're obviously just on a clock. All organisms are. You can take a fruit fly, for example, and you could give it, have it do daily yoga and have a very healthy diet and it's still going to only live for three weeks, maybe four weeks. So, environmental factors are relatively minor for extending life. You have to change the DNA, and so the question is: "Will people be okay with changing the DNA?" That's the thing about extending life. And probably people are a little bit reticent about that, but that's essentially the thing that needs to occur to extend life. You've got to stop the DNA clock somehow. I don't know if we should work on this or not. I think, frankly, I think it's probably a good thing that we do eventually die. There's a saying in physics, like, even physicists, which are generally quite objective, is like: "Old physicists don't change their mind, they just die." So, maybe it's good to have this life cycle.

Jack: Well, I think AI can definitely help the environmental sustainability. And when human beings know themselves better, human beings will be smarter and will be wiser. The difference between collective people and smart people, or wise people, smart people know what you want, and how you can get it. Wise people know what he doesn't want, so when human beings use an artificial intelligence, they will understand themselves better and I think there will be millions of ways people will live in a healthy earth and protect a health earth. The reason why I wanna stay in this earth, I wanna work on this earth, I wanna do anything I can to help this earth do better... going to space is great, but if we can spend our resources just to focus on helping pick up the garbage from the oceans, that thing is more difficult than going to Mars. But AI can help us achieve that, and solve the problems. And second, human beings can live better, can live longer, but what we need is not only live longer, we want to live healthier. How can we live healthier? It's to understand ourselves better. Most of the diseases are caused by our behavior, so I think I'm 100% sure people will live longer, people will live healthier, but may not necessarily live happier. If you want to be happier, human beings should focus on value, vision, mission, and always have the dreams. And I don't want people left to college and put their dreams on the technology. I think the technology should be with dreams, it's not technology that will change the world, it's the dreams behind the technology that change the world. So my hope is that anything we can do to improve this world, to help the 7.4 billion people live better and live healthier, this is all about our world and I think we will be working very happily, because I love your product Tesla, making the world cleaner and no noise. I'm happy you have the factory in China, and I think we need to do more things to improve this Earth, improve this world and make sure people are happier and care more about the family, people care about their health, that's all we should do and trust us. Trust the human beings, and trust young people. Let's take responsibility for today, lets not take away all the solutions for tomorrow. It's great that human beings make mistakes, it's great that human beings learn from mistakes, it's great to die.

Elon: Fight for the light of consciousness.